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gypsy christian aginst todd bentley the lateset in a long line that goes back to judas iscariot
slough church
gypsy mission
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About Me
- slugo
- london, United Kingdom
- gypsy in england saved sad to see unholiness
16 comments:
It takes considerable time to assess any man. Generally speaking we have a knee-jerk reaction to people, and our first impression lasts. Judgement calls for wisdom and careful examination, all evidence must be weighed and considered with a fair mind. All too often we are tainted by hearsay and the opinions of those we respect (Prov 18:17), but we must learn to have our own opinion without being swayed by pressure, especially what our friends say. It is too easy to condemn.
I have to admit that TB strikes me as an odd-ball, but I do not want to be swayed by a middle-class snobbery against tattoos. We do not judge by appearances do we? God doesn't (1Sam 16:17). We might say he must be a bit odd to have got them, but perhaps he regrets them now. Are we to judge him for what he was then, or what he is now? Do we not allow repentance and time for people to mature?
I am not in a position to judge his theology because I have only seen ten minutes of him and everything else I have heard is second hand - so is (even from christians) liable to exaggeration or the misconceptions of those who have relayed the info to me. I have learned from bitter experience to only go by what I see directly (1Tim 5:19) - otherwise I am not bearing true witness (for you are only a witness if you have seen things first-hand). I can only say - tentantively at this stage - that I was not impressed by his theology, but in fairness he was only speaking briefly during worship, not delivering a teaching or study. Besides I am usually more interested in digging into people's printed materials (if they're recent) because they are usually more revealing where theology and doctrine are concerned.
Lifestyle and testimony (1Tim 4v16) are also important for ministes, but because I do not know him personally I am in no position to comment. I have read that there are some accusations against him, but they seem to be in his past - I would not liked to be severely judged for my past, so I am willing to extend the same measure of grace to others. However, if those things can be substantiated, they could be serious. Besides all that I could say its none of my business because he isn't in my church, and we need to focus on our own life and doctrine. I do feel we can be armchair critics - what are we doing for Jesus? Not enough - never enough!
all well and good you not wanting to judge him just yet but we have to protect our sheep from [rue en bakri gad] so we have to look and find the truth to protect your sheep while you dither many people are watching and beleiving wrong things because we dont lead rightly i dont judge because of his tatoos or his dress but for his false teaching
OK. First of all we have different approaches because we have different needs and concerns. My concern is broader, being focussed on teachers and ministers, whereas your concern is for members of the flock. Besides I prefer to consider the long term - these little starlets of the Christian TV world rise and fall, enjoying their brief moment of fame before another one comes along. I really can't see the attraction for them because I can't see that they have anything to offer. They never say anything new, and they only seem to stir things up for a while whilst nothing actually changes. They claim a revival, but no such thing because revivals don't come from rousing music repeated to a hypnotic rhythm, or atmospheric hysteria. Revival comes when the churchknuckles down and does what the Lord commanded: faithfully reading their Bibles, faithfully praying and faithfully witnessing - boring but very powerful, so all we have to do is persuade the flock (not just ministers) to put other business in second place, and start serving the Lord as if we really believed he is coming back soon (rather than just claimimg we do). As you can see, I'm coming back round to the fact that we are lacking - let us tun the sword upon ourselves! Neither our flock nor our ministers should have so much time on their hands that they spend their lives gauping at the box - they should be fulfilling the Commission so that we could see revival in their churches instead of watching somebody else's efforts at 'manufacturing' one with a quick fixit.
I don't want to be picky about american showmanship or TV hype (the producers do have a job to do in the competitive market of TV vandalism), because, as you point out, our concern should be doctrine. I'm glad that your concern is doctrinal, but be specific: tell me what he teaches so that it can be challenged/assessed.
ok there you go again it is not what you think all the time![ you cannot see the attraction] but other people are and yes they do sit and watch and even beleive this stuff because it looks and sounds radical and groundbreaking and with power
some of the things he teaches that i have seen and heard
he encourages people to speak to angels
he said that jesus told him to tell people to believe in the angel that gives him gold
thats besides all the usual demon based theology of prosperity preachers
one night i watched as he said that jesus would come into the meeting physically to meet him he said jesus told him this then within 5 minutes he changed his mind
as for we should not be gawping at the tv yes but dont just stay in your own little world and pretend people dont watch the bible says we need to be aware of the devils schemes
Thats better! Now we're talking about specifics instead of mudslinging. I could do with witnessing these things for myself so that I can assess them myself. Have you got any weblinks/videos links/references to printed stuff (recent - I can't hold someone accountable for what they believed in the past because they change and learn as we all do). When I see it for myself then we can proceed, because all things must be established by witnesses. I'm sure what you have said is right by, in principle, it is second hand, and until I am a witness then I am not qualified to speak. I need direct/primary sources (the man himself), not secondary sources (reports about him). This is not about dithering, nor about living in my own world - it is about being accurate and fair, in accordance with scripture, not just getting swept along by someone elses mob lead heretic hunt. We'll discuss the theology when we have the evidence. I know it takes a long time, but its easy just to repeat what others say without verifying it - wouldn't hold up in a worldly court of law so how much less so in a godly one?
just type his name in to you tube you will see and hear for yourself sorry i do not no how to link it
OK, I've searched YouTube for Todd Bentley, and he certainly seems to have drawn a lot of attention.
There are 3 ways to links to videos from YouTube.
1. Embedding: to the right of the video is a piece of code that can be copied/pasted into the HTML editor of blogger (click customise, post and then select HTML). A bit complex but the video then plays when the post is viewed. I can't do that to your blog because I don't have access as an author.
2. Below the video are the share options. Click on 'More options' and copy/paste the code in the box (which is also the same as the explorer address bar at the top of the screen while you are watching the video in question)
For example when I was watching the one about angels the address was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
so lets start with that one.
Angels? What's the problem? Paul spoke with angels and was strengthened by them (Acts 27:23) as was Jesus (Luke 22:43). Angels have appeared to mant in both OT & NT, even unsaved.
OK, I've searched YouTube for Todd Bentley, and he certainly seems to have drawn a lot of attention.
There are 3 ways to links to videos from YouTube.
1. Embedding: to the right of the video is a piece of code that can be copied/pasted into the HTML editor of blogger (click customise, post and then select HTML). A bit complex but the video then plays when the post is viewed. I can't do that to your blog because I don't have access as an author.
2. Below the video are the share options. Click on 'More options' and copy/paste the code in the box (which is also the same as the explorer address bar at the top of the screen while you are watching the video in question)
For example when I was watching the one about angels the address was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
so lets start with that one.
Angels? What's the problem? Paul spoke with angels and was strengthened by them (Acts 27:23) as was Jesus (Luke 22:43). Angels have appeared to mant in both OT & NT, even unsaved.
true but we are never told to beleive in the angel emma which puts gold dust on people and gives him money and he claims this angel has always been with him since childhood even when he was a peodophile drug dealer [which he is now forgiven if he is a christian] so he had a angel when he was a child of the devil what kind of an angel is it?
Right, so the problem is not the angels, so much as what they say/do. Should we quote Galaxians 1:8? This angel does sound a little materialistic doesn't it? However, I haven't found the videos on that yet, so I can't comment further. I can only comment on what I have seen: in the video I cited before (encounters with angels) then I was a little disturbed by the way he ascribed supernatural works to the angels if 1Cor 12:11 specifies that the gifts are administered by the Spirit (not spirits) which seems clearly to mean the Holy Spirit of course. Having said that, just how are angels supposed to minister to the saints (Heb 1:14) and I am rather concerned about the general over-emphasis on angels. Perhaps he is somewhat misguided there, but in video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNV-5RQiwss
he denies that angels guide him, so it seems that he holds that God gives supernatural things, but does so through angels.
Understand that I have no interest in defending TB, but we need to use specific quotes that we can substantiate/prove and exact references from scripture, so that we can stand in our own right. You list several objections, and I know that you have seen the evidence yourself and are convinced, but we will never convince others (except those who are already convinced - but what value is that?) unless we can furnish them with material evidence. Why preach to the converted?!
How about objecting to Todd Bently not on the grounds of an interpretation of Biblical scripture but on the rational and logical grounds that the man induces an hysteria and frenzy among his devotees that has less to do with authentic internal spirituality than it does with a rock concert?
I am only sorry for the followers of his that seek so desperately to comprehend Divinity that they have become blinded to the devices of what is obviously a charlatan.
Furthermore it would be one thing to judge his character based upon a physical appearance which is less than attractive, however "Know them by their fruits". A seed may be hidden though the fruit which emanates is visible and the physical fruits of Todd Bently speak for themselves.
Well put. Welcome aboard. Naturally many of these followers are sensation seekers, hoping for a quick fix-it for their lacklustre relationship with God. Whilst Christians enjoy instant access to God's presence because the way has been opened by Calvary, that does not guarantee a strong relationship with the Almighty. There is no short cut, and relationship must be built up over time - the path to 'enlightenment' is long and arduous, through persecution and perseverence. This takes piety and study of the scriptures. Worship is lovely and can be helpful, but is not a replacement. As you point out even at rock concerts you can see people 'lost in the music' or hyped up into a frenzy, so it does not prove the presence of God. As also I have seen members of cults waving their hands in the air with their eyes closed, I am not impressed by wonderful worship services. I am satisfied they are not saved because they have not obeyed the Gospel, so therefore can have no knowledge of God, yet they are having what appears to be a spiritual experience. What may be mistaken for sincerity is in fact the opposite. Romans 12 says that our 'reasonable' (logikhn - logical, sensible?) act of worship is to live a life devoted to the Lord = holiness, obedience, prayer/intercession, study/learning and service/witnessing. Most of these TV starlets offer a buzz, but leave behind disappointment and the hapless sheep trapse along to the next one. God is more likely to be found in the quiet whispers of Gethsemane than in the constant babbling of christianised paganism.
In all honesty I would contest that Todd Bently and his sheep even intellectually comprehend God - much less have a transcendental connection to It - beyond a childish understanding of a character in a sacred text. In their lust for sensational tricks and their cultivation of a frenzy which manifests in a zombie-like state of mind they are truly known by their fruits. As far as I am concerned actions speak louder than words and God knows that televangelists love to use a lot of words! (perhaps to hide their lack of *real* actions that leave an imprint on this world?)
The spirituality of an individual is reflected in this sensual realm through the character and behavior of that individual, as the great alchemist Paracelsus (obviously inspired by Matthew 7:16) once declared: "No seed is hidden so much that it wouldn’t be revealed through its fruit". Therefore irregardless of the verbal Christian claims to be saved, the Buddhist claims to be enlightened or the Occultist claims to be liberated the true indicator of attainment is characteristics. Do they embody authentic knowledge, understanding, beauty and mastery over their lives?
It is the nature of the Path of Perfection that the higher one climbs Jacob's Ladder the more their revealed personality comes to reflect God. While I would agree that becoming a Christian (and the symbolism of a sacrificial Christ is extremely powerful in terms of psychology, I speak from experience) - or converting to any religion for that matter - can act as a psychological turning point it is really only the very, very early stages of spiritual attainment and that only when the convert is deeply sincere. You are 100% correct " the path to 'enlightenment' is long and arduous, through persecution and perseverance". Many are called, few are chosen and I would suggest that for all who say the "sinner's prayer" a minute proportion will pick up their Cross daily and endure through transformative suffering being as they are more concerned with feeding the Lower Self with meaningless trivialities.
Back to Todd Bently. I do wonder whether or not after their orgy of the senses his sheep would engage in a act of true worship such as solitarily contemplating the Mystery of God under a star-lit sky or finding a connection to the Light through the development of the Self. I wont hold my breath.
Hi guys, I just wanted to join you on your debate about Todd Bentley.
However my debate is not concerned with Todd Bentley and the work of "Bam!" None the less my concern is over the work and power of the Holy Spirit in the life's of Christian believers, around the World. Who all need the power and presents of the Holy Spirit, to enable them to fulfill the great commission, of spreading the Gospel.
However we must look upon the signs and wonders with a biblical viewpoint, when we examine the work of the Holy Spirit. We must never use religion or denominationalism to cloud our view of the works of God.
Unfortunately we base a lot of what we believe on what we experience, especially in our Churches and denomination's. The Scriptures are always open to interpretation and interpretation, is always depending on your own viewpoint.
WE must never put God in our box, he is bigger then any box we could ever make in our little minds. This is important to remember when we judge and condemn, phenomena we don't understand.
These are some questions about this so called outpouring, that is going around the World at this moment.
1.Is the Name of Jesus Christ being lifted up around the World, Yes or No?
2.Are thousands being saved and healed, Yes or No?
3. Are people being raised from the dead, Yes or no?
4.Are the drug addicts and the demon possessed being released, Yes or No?
If the answer is yes to any of the above, then it must be a work of the Holy Spirit. It can't be a work of man, regardless of how many tattoos he may have. However some may say "It must be a work of a foul spirit" Jesus' says that "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined"(Matthew 12:25-26)
Charles Fox Parham was a man that Studied his Bible and came under great persecution from then the enlightened church of his day. When he experienced the work of the Holy Spirit through healing and speaking in tongues. he was bran-ed a lunatic and a heretic, to such an extent that he's own domination persecuted him for over forty years. However he remained a man of God for all his Life regardless.
Still others like 'Seymore' only lasted a short time, when the Holy Spirit moved in power. lunatics jumped on the bandwagon and overshadowed the work of the Holy Spirit that was manifest in healing and speaking in tongues also people laying prostrate before their God for up to hours.
My concern is this, if this work is the work of the Holy Spirit, can we afford to miss out on such a move of God that the has only been seen through the windows of history?
This maybe a work of a charlatan, and in so being, will only last a short time and will be shown for what it is?
Or Maybe this is an out pouring of God's Holy Spirit to all those who are thirsty for more of the Holy Spirit. Many years our churches have prayed for revival to spread across the this land. Just maybe, it might already be here, and we don't even know it?
I couldn't agree more with your general appraoch to these issues, and I appreciate your testing methods. Our problem is that we are a step away from what is happening - we are not there, and this makes me wary of being too judgemental because the evidenc I see has been filtered by media. Even when we see videos, we must be aware that 'selective editting' can be employed by those who want to justifiy their bias. As such they can be misleading and exaggerated. Both 'sides' employ this kind of method, both are guilty. I was sent literature both to defend and attack TB, yet neither was without bias - both had set out to defend or attack, rather than simply assess or investigate, so both had started with a presupposition which then dictated what evidence they discussed and how they discussed (barely the right word) that evidence. One was titled very pretentiously as a "Scholarly Rebuttal" but it was hardly that, for it was sensationalist from the start, reading more like a tabloid than a study. The exagerations totally undermined his argument.
For a list of tests to work, we do not know if the information we are receiving is accurate. There is only one sure way of knowing whether something is of God or not, and that is the Gift of Discernment. Unfortunately, you need to be there to receive that kind of insight from God, and I don't believe we can be accurate from a distance. Your list has something to commend it, but we can't 'discern' by appearances - that is in fact the very reason for the need for this gift. At Philippi Paul used discernment with the fortune teller, because appearances would be disceptive.
You ask:
1.Is the Name of Jesus Christ being lifted up around the World, Yes or No?
I would say "Probably so, but also the antics of many bring disrepute upon the name of Jesus."
2.Are thousands being saved and healed, Yes or No?
I would say "How do we really know? We see things filtered by media editors, and we hear many claims, but without personally knowing those people we don't know how many are genuine. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and assume they are, but I can't testify to their accuracy."
3. Are people being raised from the dead, Yes or no?
I have seen some secular news reports about some amazing recoveries in hospitals, for which I thank God, BUT the person in question still looked very ill. If God has healed her she should be 100%. Has he healed her or hasn't he? Miracles do not require convalescence!"
4.Are the drug addicts and the demon possessed being released, Yes or No?
This is where discernment is needed. As a personal testimony I can tell you about a certain man who was a Satan worshipper, and he formed a group for the purpose
of infiltrating churches to do damage. They studied the Bible and over a period of years they staged 'deliverances' for which they worked WITH demons, and performed many supernatural acts, including healings in - wait for it - THE NAME OF JESUS!!! Yes folks! Satan is very clever, even though he is a fool. Work it out: there is more than one Jesus, but the Jesus they worked with was not Jesus of Nazareth. Matthew 24:24. Wow!
So, how DO you tell the difference? Answer: only by discernment - ask God. Both sides in this debate cite examples of teaching and various actions by those concerned, but to be honest I don't think any of those things really count for much. We could debate all day, but only God really knows, so why not ask him?
when are we going to wake up and smell satan i am sick of the namby pamby christianity that some people are living today
look at apostle paul he was not scared to name and shame todd bentley has a drink problem he is getting divorced and now is having a wrong relationship with at least one of his staff not one person has been healed under his ministry it was all lies and hype but if you lie enough some will beleive
http://www.theledger.com/article/20080818/NEWS/1280971
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